I would not call him a metallurgist but this guy has tested a bunch of steels using an unscientific rope cut test and documented them in a spreadsheet. He was the first one that convinced me to spend over $100 for a cpm-s30v knife and it was way better then anything I had before in edge retention.
His data cant be that bad though because I built a model to predict the number of cuts for a blade using edge angle and metal compounds (no real way to take into account heat treat though). It was relatively accurate for the less exotic steels. I should really share that with the world.
Wow, nice. I have only one pocket knife and that’s the lightweight blue Benchmade 535 Bugout and I just found out it’s made of the cpm-s30v steel, nice :).
A long time ago I started collecting exemplars of edged weapons (swords, knives, axes) for no reason other than I found the aesthetic interesting. But in collecting these things you may find, as I did, that just looking at them gets to be boring so you start reading about them. When was this kind of sword invented? Who used it? For what? What replaced it? What came before it? Etc.
Before too long you may find that you are looking at two parallel universes that are interlocked by expressions of intent. In one universe are people figuring out what makes metal have the properties it does and how can I change them? And the other universe is people looking at what metal can do "now" and applying it to their creative process in weaponry.
It is an amazing tapestry of complexity behind the simple appreciation of "that's a cool sword/knife"
Several years ago there used to be a site called KnifeTests where a heavyset man dressed like a serial killer put a variety of cheap and very expensive knives through horrific levels of abuse. Using the tip to dig through a 2x4, hammering it through a steel pipe, putting in a vice and standing on it, bending the blade back and forth, slicing a variety of materials including concrete.
The one thing that really stood out was INFI steel. That stuff may as well be magic. It's honestly hard to even get anything made with it these days but if I had to trust my survival to one metal INFI would be it.
Not steel, but I was impressed to learn about the physics of obsidian knives produced during the Mayan civilization:
> When skillfully worked, the edges of prismatic blade made from obsidian can reach the molecular level, i.e., the material has a cutting edge that is only one molecule thick.
> [Glass knives] were once the blade of choice for the ultra-thin sectioning required in transmission electron microscopy because they can be manufactured by hand.
> ..Some labs still use glass knives because they are significantly less expensive than diamond knives. A common practice is to use a glass knife to cut the block which contains the sample to near the location of the specimen to be examined.
> Then the glass knife is replaced by a diamond blade for the actual ultrathin sectioning. This extends the life of the diamond blade which is used only when its superior performance is critical.
> Obsidian, a naturally occurring volcanic glass, can also be used to make sharp glass knives; obsidian surgical scalpels are available commercially.
I have family in pathology. Labs do a lot of sample sectioning before microscopy. Thin enough to stain and visualize internal structures (think onion skin).
I'm a huge knife steel nerd, so it's cool to see this article get some love on HN. Currently, I own knives in S35VN, M390, Cruwear, and 52100, all Spyderco. If you've never carried an EDC knife before I suggest you pick up a Spyderco Manix or PM2/PM3 and try it out. There's a lot of engineering and craftsmanship that goes into making a quality knife which I think HN readers could appreciate. Also, they're just handy to have around.
Genuine question, coming from the perspective of a city-dwelling office worker.
I get the value of having a knife like this in the house (to open and break down cardboard boxes, etc). Why do you need to carry one around? Can you tell me about the last time you used it outside the house?
I'm definitely over-indexing on my own experience here. Would love to have my mind opened to how carrying a knife regularly might improve my day. :)
Cutting some cord while camping. Cutting food while camping. Making a slit in a facemask lining to allow insertion of a filter. Cutting some card for a bookmark.
If you have a knife on you, it gets used.
Side-note - people tend to assume it's for self defense. I doubt that's actually practical, and I'll run away every time. Maybe throw the knife into a lake along the way to be safe from someone using it against me.
Same experience here. I’ve been carrying a knife since I worked a retail job in high school unboxing product. I still use it almost every day. Likewise I have no intention to use it in an altercation. They can have my wallet. Getting into a knife fight, knife/gun fight, or any sort of other situation where I’m more likely to be hurt than walk away... is not in my life plan.
Lots of things that people tear open are better cut open instead. New bag of coffee? Out comes the knife. Annoying stickers they seal boxes with? Knife it. Packing tape? Knife it.
> Lots of things that people tear open are better cut open instead. New bag of coffee? Out comes the knife. Annoying stickers they seal boxes with? Knife it. Packing tape? Knife it.
While this is true, a key usually works almost as well, and is something you are likely to already have to hand.
A small pocket knife is a handy tool to have, whether you think you need it everyday or not. The general idea is that it's better to have it and not need it, rather than need it and not have it.
Beyond self-defense, which is a fairly obvious use case for any "weapon," I've used my pocket knife to cut loose threads from clothing, open plastic packaging that broke a good pair of scissors, removing stickers, splinters, and even as a makeshift screwdriver (in a pinch).
You can do almost all of those with scissors, but are you going to carry a pair of scissors in your pocket? Probably not.
Beyond that, there are emergency scenarios you may never run into, such as cutting seatbelts, clothing, or stuck shoelaces -- again, better to have it and not need it...
Yup, the laws around knife possession/self defense are much worse than many other things, at least in the US. As the OP mentioned running is a better choice and only if no options existed should you even consider it.
I carry a benchmade knife everywhere. Why? Because all hell breaks loose if you have three kids and only one nectarine. Not that you need a fancy-ass knife for such work.
Other field-knife activities include “what does the inside of this seed look like?” and “I got a splinter!”
The only issue is even though the state of California permits them, the university of California forbids carrying knives, and there is one of those right in the middle of my city.
Yup, +100 on Benchmade. Their locking mechanism is the best I've ever used(strong, can be used single handed with gloves on, and doesn't put your fingers in the path of the blade). We've got a small farm and put their blades through a workout, really a fan of the 535 as a non-flashy, lightweight EDC knife.
Toured their factory pre-covid and it was pretty darn cool.
I believe that's true. You can openly carry anything. The University system claims to forbid any folding knife with a blade that locks open (i.e. most any pocketknife) and any blade longer than 2.5 inches, carried openly or concealed.
That's why I like to carry a Spyderco Dragonfly. A small (<2.5in) knife that is legal pretty much anywhere but feels like a much bigger knife when you use it.
I've carried a pocket knife since I was a boy. I cut myself once, as every boy must.
The knife is an endlessly useful tool for exploration, for testing materials, for abusing as a screwdriver or lever, removing splinters, trimming loose threads/cloth, etc. I've sometimes thought that carrying a pair of scissors might be handier but then cutting boxes, carving wood or cleaning under my fingernails would not be so easy and I worry about what image it might project. Nonetheless I would be hesitant to pick a fight with a tailor or a seamstress.
Perhaps you're too old and fixed in your ways to adapt to carrying a knife, since it seems that it's presence worries you.
If you are thinking of self-defense, you could always carry a firearm instead (or perhaps a sword or staff), since most people apparently consider that a more persuasive deterrent to violence. You can always carry a pistol unloaded, with ammo in a separate pocket, so you have time to think clearly whether to load should violence occur!8-)) Remember that one can both punch or bludgeon quite effectively with a pistol even if it is not loaded. This is called "pistol-whipping" and is commonly displayed in old Hollywood westerns.
If you cannot make up your mind there is always the "Apache" knife/gun/brass knuckles:
My 12-year-old daughter would strongly disagree that this is gender-specific :)
> If you are thinking of self-defense, you could always carry a firearm instead (or perhaps a sword or staff), since most people apparently consider that a more persuasive deterrent to violence.
Frustratingly, knife laws in the US are bad and inconsistent. It’s often the case that you can legally carry a firearm but not a good knife. Knives are also comparatively very difficult to use defensively, and extremely dangerous to the user. Every skilled knife user I know has the same opinion: If you end up in a knife fight, you will get cut.
Finally, while they can certainly be lethal, they are not typical fast-acting - for defensive purposes, it does you no good if an attacker dies hours later in the hospital from blood loss if they’re able to continue their assault in the meantime. In all circumstances where it is legal, OC (“pepper spray”) in its various forms is much better suited for defensive use. It’s relatively fast acting and has the added benefit of not killing your attacker.
> If you cannot make up your mind there is always the "Apache" knife/gun/brass knuckles:
Brass knuckles are illegal in most states, even with a carry permit in the ones that offer and require them. I couldn’t carry this in Arkansas - not because of the gun, but because of the knuckles.
> You can always carry a pistol unloaded, with ammo in a separate pocket, so you have time to think clearly whether to load should violence occur!8-)) Remember that one can both punch or bludgeon quite effectively with a pistol even if it is not loaded. This is called "pistol-whipping" and is commonly displayed in old Hollywood westerns.
This is objectively terrible advice. I’m a strong advocate for carrying a firearm, but carrying unloaded is the worst of all worlds. It’s not going to be ready when you need it, and presenting it immediately escalates the situation both legally and in the eyes of a potential attacker.
You shouldn’t carry a gun unless you have seriously considered what that means, know when you can legally use it, and are 100% certain that you understand an accept the moral responsibility that it entails. If you do, you should carry it in a way that protects it from being taken from you and makes it available for your immediate use.
Apparently I’m just a moron, because i see no reason to believe your post was satirical. The advice is silly, sure - but I’ve seen worse advice posted here, and this very thread is full of people who are apparently fearful of carrying a pen knife.
I’d say this is an excellent example of Poe’s Law.
"Poe then replied, "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is utterly impossible to parody a Creationist in such a way that someone won't mistake for the genuine article."
My earlier post reads:>"You can always carry a pistol unloaded, with ammo in a separate pocket, so you have time to think clearly whether to load should violence occur!8-)) "<
Note the !8-)) emoticon/smiley.
While your first affirmation/admission above ("Apparently I'm...") holds, Poe's Law does not apply.
As another city-dwelling office worker, I used to carry a knife everyday when I had a use for it at work. Changed jobs and eventually I realized I hadn't used it in months, so I stopped carrying it. My partner has a pretty large knife collection and enjoys expanding it, but similarly doesn't find it convenient to actually carry one.
Definitely cutting food. Maybe this goes back to my camping days, it was easier to carry a loaf of good bread and a chunk of cheese than a bag of sandwiches. (And a tube of mustard, must not forget). A pocket knife didn't make the cleanest of cuts, but did the job, and the food always got eaten as fast as I could cut it up and hand out the pieces. Likewise for bringing food along on a car trip.
Being able to do this prevented us from getting into the habit of traveling with junk food.
The knife for this job never had to be particularly big or sharp. I have a Victorinox and a cheap old boy scout knife that won't take an edge at all.
Oddly enough when my family traveled in Europe, we would usually rent an apartment for a week or two, and would just borrow a knife from the kitchen drawer for our daily hike. It was usually a stainless serrated knife with molded handle.
I live in the city and carry a knife where allowed. I use it to open boxes and packaging, cut food, turn screws (sometimes when they fit), pry things open, pick out splinters, strip wires... Its the most basic tool.
The other day I was replacing my windshield wiper blades and needed to pry out a small adapter that they came with and used an old knife I keep in my car. I was doing this in the parking lot of the auto parts store because the first set I took home did not fit correctly even though the computer said they did.
I don’t understand American knives. Too big, and in my taste often very ugly. Something like the a Victorinox Climber fits better in the pocket and works better both for city life as well as for camping, with essentials as cork screw and pincer (works very well for ticks).
Simply, many of the common situations where you'll find a pocket knife handy around your home also happen outside your home not infrequently. As you go through your day, look around for situations where a tool that can cut, pry or poke would be useful. They're probably more common than you might think.
Some examples I can think of off the top of my head, some of which may be decried as blade abuse by knife enthusiasts.
* Need to get a can of paint open, and just how all Phillips-tip screwdrivers in a 30 meter radius spontaneously cease to exist when it's time to open the case to some piece of tech, so do all flat-tip screwdrivers when it's time to open a can of paint. But the spine of the knife behind the tip makes a decent pry tool in this case.
* The ram upgrades that were ordered two weeks ago for all the CAD workstations in the engineering department have just arrived, in those thrice-damned bubble packs that cut you back when you try to cut them open with scissors. Stab, slice and now the only gods that are getting a blood sacrifice today are the gods of the insides of computer cases.
* Pulling network cable in a new office installation. Juan borrowed your jacket stripper, and hasn't come back from back from lunch yet. But, you've got practice in applying just the right pressure to cut the jacket without nicking the insulation of the twisted pairs inside or slicing your thumb.
* While visiting a friend, the mail arrives, including little Billy's latest issue of Superman. To Billy's frustration, it in one of those plastic bags that simply does not tear when pulled on, it just stretches. One poke later, and now it actually will tear open, and Billy can see how Superman's fight with Darkseid comes out.
* It's Reverse Engineering Night at the local hackerspace. Ahh, gadget makers are so cute. They think a recessed plastic tab smaller than human fingers can protect the case screws from your kit of specialty screwdrivers designed for voiding warranties.
* Rebuilding the engine for a project car. While assembling the cylinder head, you notice that the caps for the camshaft had little slots machined into their faces to act as channels for oil distribution. But, when the machine shop did a hot-tank cleaning of these parts, not all of the hardened crud came of of those little channels. Dammit, now your remember the reason you'd been keeping that old set of dental picks that you threw away last week when cleaning out the garage. Well, pocket knife tip is fine enough to get in there with some care.
I'm sure you or your friends can probably come up with some more examples.
I'm surprised not at those uses, but that anyone would use a fancy steel knife for any of them. I have a utility knife that takes replaceable utility knife blades, and I'd think having a replaceable blade would work best for any of those things.
That is why I don't regularly carry around an expensive pocket knife. Maybe for camping or something I would have a nice one, where quality is paramount, but otherwise if it is half decent steel, ill get every dollars worth out of it even when it eventually gets destroyed. Like if I was opening a bag of dirt or soil, I sure as fuck not going to want to fuck up the edge on some fancy expensive knife that will take forever to grind and sharpen back to service.
If I do need a knife like that, there is no problem in bringing two. Like I might carry a utility knife and a general pocket knife so I can cut cardboard products with the utility knife and maintain a better pocket knife edge. If im working in the dirt I might use a general pocket knife with a serrated section that im not worried about plunging into some dirt or sod, and carry a better and sharper knife for something like cutting insulation or cutting wood or tough string.
My pocketknife is first and foremost, a tool. By modern fancy pocketknife standards, it's rather pedestrian. But it isn't a cheap knife either. A cheap knife would not hold up actually being used as a tool.
> I'm surprised not at those uses, but that anyone would use a fancy steel knife for any of them.
Speaking only for myself - I get enjoyment from using quality tools. That goes for knives, but it’s also why I invested in Milwaukee M18 Fuel power tools when the much cheaper Ryobi line would technically have met my needs. It’s also why I use vim and have spent as much time as I have customizing it to my liking.
For knives, there are three that I regularly carry:
For everyday use, I always have my Microtech UTX-85 D/E (~$250). It’s an OTF (“out the front”), the blade is ELMAX, and is easily opened with one hand. While I originally chose it primarily for defensive use - I often carry a full-sized handgun OWB, and it’s well suited for use as a retention tool - I’ve found its ability to hold an edge and ease of opening makes it ideal for everyday tasks like opening packages. If I had to do it over I would buy the single-edged version; the double edge makes it difficult sometimes to get leverage when cutting something stubborn.
I usually carry a second knife that’s sturdier and well-suited for “serious cutting”. If I need to open a thick plastic package, or (gently) pry on something, I use it. It’s a Gerber US-Assist (~$100). The blade is S30V, and has a nice, thick spine that I can lay my finger on to gain good control. It also a locking blade (so it can’t fold on my fingers when using it) and has a safety button so the blade can be affirmatively locked either open or closed.
Finally, for food purposes only, I have a CRKT CEO (~$50). Its blade is commodity steel (“8Cr13MoV”, I had to look it up), and it holds an edge adequately. Pretty much every time I use it, I touch up the edge that night so it stays razor sharp. Because I’m mostly cutting meat with it I chose a long, slender blade with a gentle curve. Since getting it I’ve found myself increasingly annoyed when I unexpectedly go out to eat and end up having to tear a steak with a dull serrated steak knife provided at a restaurant.
> I have a utility knife that takes replaceable utility knife blades, and I'd think having a replaceable blade would work best for any of those things.
If I were regularly using a knife for cutting boxes, tape, plastic, etc., I’d do the same. Many years ago when I was working as an electrician, I had a folding knife that used standard utility knife blades. When I was working in PC Support at a large company and was often opening boxes and breaking them down to be crushed, I carried it as well.
I carry a single expensive knife (my Microtech) because I like it. It’s not that complicated :). I have other knives for specific purposes, and carry them when I expect I might need them - but in a pinch, the Microtech can serve almost any role adequately well. A good steel will hold an edge very well and give you that flexibility - I don’t hesitate to cut anything with it. Meanwhile, I would never use the slender generic steel blade of my “food knife” to open a plastic package that might have metal staples; it would destroy the edge and would at least take time and effort to restore the edge. I might even have to reprofile it.
All of this is to say: I highly recommend that everyone carry a good quality, general purpose pocketknife. They can be had at any budget level and you’ll use it far more than you’d expect. Beyond that... spending more money and acquiring knives for specific purposes is something you either enjoy or you don’t.
> I went down a rabbit hole about EDC in WA state. There is a grey area that carrying a pocket knife requires a concealed weapons permit.
From what I can tell, the article you linked talked mostly about the illegality of concealed carrying a fixed blade knife. From what I can tell, it's perfectly legal to carry a folder as long as it doesn't possess any "bad" features[2] and is within the length restriction.
The law in Seattle is pretty clear.
> "Dangerous knife" means any fixed-blade knife and any other knife having a blade more than 3 1/2 inches in length[1].
2. My understanding is that a lot of otherwise normal "folding knives" fall under the "gravity knife" definition because the detent that holds the blade closes is often pretty weak (on purpose - it makes opening the knives one handed easier).
In Colorado I believe the maximum length allowed is 3.5 inches in blade length. This sounds simple but can even be a grey area because some knives like Spyderco have a part of the blade thats not sharpened and technically part of the handle.
NYC used to be very knife unfriendly and you could get charged with carrying a gravity knife if the knife could be flicked open in any way. Good news though as it sounds like that changed https://reason.com/2019/03/28/federal-judge-rules-new-yorks-... There was still a case in NYC of a chef who was charged with something for carrying a very small pocket knife on his way home from work. He was charged with something for the pocket knife but from what I remember it was totally okay that he was carrying a bunch of large chefs knives in his backpack.
Its important to read and understand the law as well as how its actually enforced.
my current EDC is a Benchmade 940-1 (S90V) - love it. used to EDC a Spyderco Centofante 4 (VG-10), but the flat blade profile is not a great all-arounder.
They are tools, so let's start with the handles. The Manix handle has a shape which is thin enough to easily carry in pocket yet which fills the hand to enable not just one but a range of different solid grips for maximizing strength or control. The handle materials also make the knife extremely durable yet light even though it is relatively large.
Deploying a Victorinox usually means using two hands and then not having a solid lock on the deployed blade. Putting the knife back is also a two handed gesture. While the blade has a stop around halfway to retracted there is still some risk involved. The Manix uses a Spyderco specific variation of a slider lock mechanism which allows the blade to be easily deployed using a range of fast flick or slow slide gestures that require only one hand. When the Manix blade is deployed and the slider lock is not manually held open it automatically locks solidly so that the blade does not move against the handle and the strength of the lock is such that the handle is more likely to fail than the lock itself. Retracting the Manix blade is as simple as pulling back on the slide and then letting the blade fall or swing back into place and while some prefer to use two hands it is easy and even fun to deploy and retract the Manix with one hand.
When it comes to cutting there are many variables and the most important is the geometry of the blade. The broad flat grind of the Manix and the classic shape of the cutting edge make it easy to use for piercing and cutting action that slices instead of chopping. Superior materials mean that under use almost any of the Manix blade variants will hold an edge far longer than the Victorinox.
So whether simply carrying the knife around just in case it is needed, deploying it for use, or actually cutting things the Manix is going to deliver easer and more reliable performance. It may be just a knife, but if you often use a knife then the convenience can quickly pile up to being less than a dollar--even pennies per actual use with each. And every time you can have the satisfaction of doing what needs to be done with minimal inconvenience. And it is also just plain fun: A fidgety machine that looks cool and works well can inspire confidence in the modern world the way so many other widgets can turn promise into a drag.
If we are talking multitools, a Leatherman would do nicely and it has blade lock (beside a S30V blade, possibly depending on models).
Depending on the country (and possibly in the US depending on states) a folding knife that can be opened with a flick of the hand/wrist may be considered illegal (switchblade or more accurately "gravity knife").
In some places there are also contrasting theories on the legality of the "lock open", i.e. a Victorinox multitool or an old Leatherman without lock would "pass" but a (say) Leatherman Charge/Wave/Surge would be border line[1] or just over the border[2].
> A Spyderco Manix seems to cost about twice as much as a ~15 tool Victorinox. In what way is it better, given that it's just a knife?
I guess it really depends on what you care about.
If you have the Victorinox mostly for the tools, then it's obviously better than the Spyderco. If you have it mostly for the blade, then the Spyderco will be better. The edge will be sharper and will last longer. Also, the lock is more ergonomic and probably stronger.
If you really like the Victorinox and don't care that much about the cork screw, a Leatherman wave/charge just has much better tools and blade than Victorinox, and you can get the blade in s30v for a bit better performance.
I see it as a category thing; a multitool has a knife, but is not a pocket knife. It is fine for cutting things in a pinch, but is terrible for much use - the ergonomics are all wrong, it is heavy and awkwardly shaped, and usually the blade shape is going to be very generic.
As far as cost, it is like anything else - you pay for quality. Others have covered this, I don't have anything to add, other than a rule of thumb - if you've never sharpened a knife, you will probably not find much value in nice ones.
As far as value, that's up to you. I use a knife daily, some days more than anything else I carry with me. If you don't need one, then it will be worth far less to you.
I don't have one, but they are pretty different in terms of value proposition, a Victorinox is barely a knife (most are non-locking, which makes them only suited for opening letters), but has some extra tools tucked in that might come in handy, or not. As you pay more for folding knives you get better steel (for holding an edge), locking (for not cutting your fingers off), ergonomics in the handle. There are certainly diminishing returns, and past a point you're mostly paying for fancy materials in the scales of the handle, and a designer's signature. There are lots of cheap and cheerful Chinese-made knives that are still a lot sturdier that a Victorinox, though.
In what kind of normal use of a knife do you risk that the blade folds and cuts your finger without a locking mechanism? I have some trouble visualise anything except possibly stabbing (which I don’t consider normal use).
Can't say I do a lot of stabbing, other than boxes. But any kind of cutting where the material can hold onto the blade, like whittling a stick, or cutting a fair-sized piece of rope can cause a non-locking blade to fold onto your fingers.
If you need to cut things even a few times a week, I'd recommend trying a knife with a pocket clip and one-handed opening. Being able to have the knife ready in 2 seconds without having to put down what you're holding is both useful and gratifying.
Spyderco's thumb-hole system works very well for one handed opening and the grip ergonomics on the Manix2 and Paramilitary2 are great. If those are too large for your tastes, the Spyderco Native is a good choice (while being harder to close one-handed)
I've carried a Spyderco Ladybug for over a decade. If you get the serrated blade (and you should), you'll want a sharpener that works on them. The closed length is about 2-1/4" (57mm)
Note that it has a locking blade, which makes it illegal in the UK, even though the length is under the limit.
Yeah, closing the Manix2 is harder than the PM2. Grip strength and practice are all I can recommend. I grip the handle with all my fingers (not covering the slot) with the butt/pommel nestled in the the palm. This gives you the leverage to reach forward with thumb and index finger to pull rearwards on the locking nubs. Then you can whip your wrist to get the blade to seat, or just reach forward with the thumb to pull it in.
edit: when you've got the nubs pulled back, you have to give it a little shake shift the blade a little.
After having a pocket knife close on my finger as a kid (when I did something stupid;)), I will never again use a pocketknife without a locking mechanism.
A knife is a personal tool; Often what you're paying for is not just the blade quality, but also the ergonomics. For example, my dad has one that he really likes, but I dislike the blade shape, and there's another one I have that is just horribly shaped and feels terrible in the hand.
What kind of steel is in that Victorinox? How well does it take an edge (can it even take the same kind of edge), hold an edge, resist chipping, corrosion, etc. compared to the Spyderco? It might well be a better overall EDC tool, but since this is a story specifically about steel I'd guess that the answers to those questions would explain why 2x is literally a small price to pay for some people.
Victorinox uses a proprietary steel, which I hear good things about does seem to me to be a very good steel. That said, I'm still not a fan of Victorinox blades for much beyond letter opening because of their size & geometry. As others have said, if you want a knife, there are WAY better knives. If you want a bunch of tools, okay. Still partial to Leatherman myself, as much as I like the Swiss Army aesthetic.
i carry a knife but also a thin victorinox money clip. the scissors in it hold their edge very well and are extremely handy. the knife in the clip is also quite good, especially in situations where pulling out the more serious 3.4" blade is inappropriate.
i also have a victorinox Fieldmaster multi-tool, but the knife in it does not get a lot of use since i cannot EDC the thing due to its heft. i've used the saw in it multiple times and that thing is fantastic.
> I would probably go for that if I carried cash much - but I pretty much just use cards now.
i don't use it for cash, either. but it's extremely thin and is comfortable in the jeans front mini-pocket. much lower profile and no cheap plastic compared to their standard keychain knife:
The Spyderco is "just a knife" but the Victorinox is more of a multitool. Yes, the multitool has blades, but they're typically thin and don't lock back. Basically the Spyderco is excellent at many cutting tasks, and a Swiss Army Knife is rarely the best tool but might be the only one you have available for a wide variety of tasks. Choose the right tool for the job.
m0llusk gave a great answer, but to add to it, they aren't the same types of knives either.
You can buy a Victorinox Swiss Army knife (SAK) in exactly one blade steel and it's a stainless steel that's extremely soft, relatively speaking. That's actually a good thing for most casual users since it's fast and easy to sharpen, resilient to abuse, and being stainless, easy to maintain. However, it will not stand up to a lot of normal usage before the edge dulls and it just doesn't perform well anymore.
By contrast, the Manix's base model uses S30V and you'll probably get three or four times as much use from it before it dulls. Spyderco is also a "knife enthusiast's knife company" and they make a lot of their knives available in other varieties of steel too. One variant is Maxamet (a tool steel uses to cut other metals) and you'd easily have an edge on that variant last probably 10 times longer than a Swiss Army knife, but at the cost of having a more brittle edge that is much more difficult to sharpen and it's not a truly stainless steel either, so you have to be mindful of rust and exposure. If you're in a job position where you use it a lot, like in a warehouse where you cut pallet straps and break down boxes constantly, the steel variant choice can easily be the difference between needing to touch up the edge every single day vs. once a week. Spyderco also makes an entire lineup of knives that can withstand saltwater exposure without needing constant maintenance, something that would render a Swiss Army knife useless quickly. Those attributes mean the cost difference can be just about anything if the real world choice is between "useless hunk of rust" and "usable".
There are also economies of scale. Victorinox sells a lot more SAKs than Spyderco sells Manixes, they stamp out their blades by the thousands, if not millions. Spyderco probably doesn't make more than 100k Manix knives a year. A single Manix also has about as much steel in it as 2 or 3 SAKs (the blade is two or three times thicker at the spine), the handle material is nicer and more expensive, the construction is maintainable, the lock is stronger and more intricate. Also there's a machining cost difference, you don't stamp out thick blade blanks of high end steels, you have to cut them out of a billet. Grinder belts are a consumable that are used to sharpen a knife and they last a lot longer for soft steels vs. hard steels. That cost as well as the additional time an employee spends on it goes into the knife's cost. Spyderco's Manix is made in Golden Colorado, which also has a high cost of living and afaik they compensate their employees with a livable wage (I've been to their factory outlet several years in a row and keep seeing the same faces).
All that said, knives can also be pocket jewelry and there's a whole world of stupidly expensive knives out there that enthusiasts push up the prices of, just like there's stupidly expensive cars, watches, keyboards, shaving razors, dress shoes, sneakers, streetwear, raw denim, etc, etc. You can easily reframe your question as to why a pair of Japanese raw denim jeans costs way more than twice as much as a pair of Wranglers at WalMart, given that they're just pants. Or why a Lamborgini costs more than a Civic, given that they're just cars, or why a Keycult keyboard resales second hand for $4k when you can buy a Dell OEM keyboard for $15.
There’s no such thing as a zero maintenance knife. Stainless steel knifes are lower maintenance than higher carbon steel ones. Zwilling, Wustof, Victorinox and Global all make good quality “affordable” stainless knifes.
But if you want it to last and keep a sharp edge, the only way you can do that is by sharpening them every so often. Even once a month on a ~400 grit stone will keep them in pretty good condition.
People are suggesting ceramic, but seriously don’t bother. They dull and chip, and you can NEVER sharpen them. A ceramic knife has a short life span, after which there is literally nothing you can do to bring back it’s cutting edge.
+1 for the Victorinox fibrox series. They're not pretty, they're not designed, they're not cool, they're not the sharpest, and they're not cheap.
But they're certainly not expensive, and they're just 100% utilitarian. Ergonomic, sharp, easy to sharpen, and you can throw them in the dishwasher no problem.
If you want to optimize for value-for-money and ease-of-maintenance, these are it.
First, use a wooden cutting board. Or soft plastic.
Ceramic knives (Kyocera) are harder and more wear resistant than any steel can be, but they're also brittle. The edge can chip if you hit anything hard. You can't cut bones or crusty bread. Don't hit it against any hard object by accident. Don't twist or bend. You could get several years of use out of it, but when it wears out and gets dull, you'd need diamond files to sharpen it.
European chef knives are softer steel (56 to 58 hardness in Rockwell scale), but they are not brittle. Wusthof is a premium brand. The Victorinox Fibrox is very good value at about $40. The steel will bend and give in, but not chip. If you use a honing rod weekly and sharpen every couple of months, you can always have a nice sharp knife. A single 1000 grit sharpening stone like Shapton should suffice, but not everyone wants to learn hand sharpening. You can also use a pull-through sharpener, some are ok but some are just bad. A skilled hand sharpening will produce a finer edge, though.
Then there is a whole world of Japanese chef knives, called gyutos. Rockwell hardness is usually from 61 to 64. They are thinner, lighter, nimbler and sharper than Western style knives, but the steel is so hard that it can be brittle. Hard steel can be sharpened to a small angle to get a very sharp knife, but if you hit a hard object the edge will chip. Slicing vegetables is just a breeze. Honing rod might also damage the edge, unless you apply very light touch. Pull-through sharpeners might destroy the edge. Some "super steels" are very wear resistant so they stay sharp for months, but wear resistance also makes it more laborious to sharpen them.
>A single 1000 grit sharpening stone like Shapton should suffice, but not everyone wants to learn hand sharpening
I recommend learning whetstone sharpening to anyone. It's therapeutic.
Also I guess learning on a water-soaked stone is actually easier (they are cheaper too).
Any tool needs some maintenance and care, knives don't really make an exception. Other than that - ceramic knives would be the no-maintenance ones - if you chip it, buy another.
I am no knife nerd and it is heresy to bring it up in this thread but I am a big believer in ceramic knives. They cut clean, maintain an edge with no fuss, and just work. I recommend ones from Kyocera (made in Japan) since those have worked well for me. Also somewhat related, my peppermill is a Kyocera ceramic as well - works awesome compared to some of the others I've tried.
I will concede that cheaper ceramic knives may chip easily but I have been using my set for about 6 years without any issues. The very first cheap ceramic knife I got chipped because I inadvertently dropped it from counter height on a tile floor. My stainless steel knives now just sit idle in drawers and I don't miss them one bit - haven't used one in years.
Snap, got 3 Kyocera. Had them for years, never had them sharpened (though I'm told I can post them to do this) but hands down the best knives I've ever owned.
My favorite kitchen knife is an old steel knife with a handle ~4 1/2" long, blade ~8" long and width of ~1". I keep it clean and oiled and sharpen it occasionally with one of those crappy cheap kitchen knife-sharpeners you get in any grocery store. I oil it with olive oil (soak the handle too) and dry it out in a warm spot once a year too. It gets better with age.
I was lucky: one day at the convenience store I walked into the (tiny) restroom as a homeless guy was stashing his knife collection up in the attic space (he had failed to lock the door). I excused myself and backed out but notified the manager. We retrieved the knife set, which proved to be a collection of professional Japanese restaurant kitchen knives (very high end and nice) and various other sundry knives. I picked out the knife I describe above (it was one of the "other sundry") and said I wanted it; the manager gladly let me take it. The rest went into the trash. I've had that knife for years now and its the most useful of all my kitchen knives.
Strong recommendation: you will be happier with a Japanese style chef's knife/gyuto than with a Western one. The blade is thinner, as is the edge geometry. This is if and only if you can treat the edge properly; the thicker steel and wider edge of a Wusthof may be more your style, otherwise.
Properly means cutting on surfaces designed for cutting, cleaning it, honing it, and storing it in a way that protects the edge.
Fujiwara Kanefusa makes a few which are reasonably priced and all you'll ever need. I got mine on vacation in Kappabashi in Tokyo, a trip I get to remember fondly every time I'm in the kitchen, but it's not really a product category where you get much more by paying a lot more.
Note: there's no such thing as a zero maintenance kitchen knife. Any knife you use will need sharpening about yearly. There's also someone in your town who will do it for ten quid; no reason at all to learn how unless you want another hobby.
I have a set of Shun Classics that I hone maybe once every two weeks. They are still incredibly sharp after 8 years of daily, extensive use and I’ve only sharpened them three times on my whetstone. I will only break out the stone if I can see missing chunks in the blade edge; this is the goal of sharpening: to remove the blade material around a divot to create a new, continuous blade edge.
Also, make sure to use a honing steel. If you “hone” on one of those ceramic sharpening rods, you will reduce the life span of your knife. Ceramic removes blade material, steel simply realigns it. The edge of the blade will curl over with use, honing straightens it back up, no need to remove material!
Bought one of those Wusthof Classic Block Set with a few knives in it more than 20 years ago. The blades still look like new, the handles have some scratch marks. Use them every week multiple times.
Only care provided was to hand wash them, dry them and put them back in the block. Very rarely attempted sharpening but frequently honed with a steel whenever I felt any dullness while cutting.
Thats about the lowest maintenance I can think of.
Buy decent knives, take care of them and they will last a lifetime and maybe multiple generations.
similarly bought a set of henckels classics and they're holding up fine, except for one, where a bit of the plastic handle has broken off (apparently i can send it in to get it fixed, but haven't done so).
i'm lazy so i have to hone/sharpen the knives more often than i like (every few weeks vs. never), but they've overall provided great bang-for-buck!
It should be noted that iron was still around before iron-ore mining. But metallurgists back then had to wait for meteorites to fall from the sky and craft those (King Tut's meteorite-iron sword).
But yes, the leap from copper/bronze (which could be discovered by simply dropping rocks into a fire, since copper melts at low enough temperatures) vs iron, which is a process that requires much hotter temperatures + forging techniques, is huge.
Learning to mix metals into alloys would eventually lead to the discovery of steel (mix iron + wood). Not as good as modern steel, but trial-and-error would get a process down over the centuries for sure.
The "Iron Forge" seems to be the hardest step in the whole tech tree. Its a huge leap, no matter how I think about it. Maybe some old pre-history metallurgist was lucky enough to play with meteorite-iron and noticed similarities to ore somewhere else.
Bronze was revolutionary in other ways. Sure, copper occurs in native metallic form, but even once you find out that mixing it with certain minerals yields a much better metal, you have other problems. Namely that the mineral that gives the best alloy, cassiterite, or SiO2, only occurs in large quantities thousands of kilometers away from your copper deposits. Trade between regions that had hitherto had little contact became a thing.
Iron, as known to the ancients, was in many ways inferior to bronze. Iron with low carbon content is malleable but soft, whereas iron with too much carbon is hard but brittle. It took a long time for people to painstakingly learn to make iron that was consistently as good as bronze, and even longer to learn how to further refine iron into consistent-quality steel, a process that also required huge amounts of energy compared to bronzemaking.
At this point in the internet there are literally thousands of Youtube videos, Quora threads, and various other articles debunking the myth of Japanese swords. It is really just another example of the myth of the exotic Orient.
Here's one I picked at random to get you started on catching up:
His claim is not that it is superior but that there is evidence that this process was discovered in Japan. I never heard that before, not sure what on that wiki page backs that
With modern metallurgy and machining techniques, could you design a sword that if transported back in time, would be looked at as a magical weapon (perhaps due to its strength, weight, cutting ability, etc?). What would you design?
This isn't a complete answer, but, modern powder metallurgy along with exacting thermal control can make some blades that would probably take impact MUCH better than medieval ones. You could achieve more hardness and toughness with modern steels.
Since the art of swordfighting is lost, you'd possibly engineer an incredible "long knife" that a professional swordsman would regard as unsuitable for combat or of mediocre value.
It's not about making a pretty similar copy in terms of weight and balance. OP is asking about a weapon so superior it was viewed as magical.
Let's think about this in terms of the standard engineering design-V: if you have nobody available for validating the design, how could you produce a product that you know to be so technologically superior that it appears to be "magic"?
They did great work with the materials they had available, but the materials they had were quite poor. Tamahagane is a very poor steel which requires a great deal of forging to work the slag inclusions out. The extensive folding was done to purify the steel; with a higher quality steel doing that isn't necessary. Contemporary Middle East and European metallurgists had better material to work with and their best steel, crucible spring steel, was better than the best Japanese steel.
I think it's sort of funny that people are idolizing medieval Japanese swordsmiths.
"They folded their blades 200 times!!!"
Yes, because they had to, because the source material was pretty crap comparatively. Not because they were some kind of magical elven runesmiths making densetsu katanas.
I still find it hilarious that 'Damascus steel' was a snow-job by the merchants to keep people from cutting out the middle man, by naming it after a place half a continent away from where it was being sourced.
You may be buying it from Damascus but that crucible steel was coming from Hyderabad.
What a lot of people also don't know is that forging doesn't give the steel it's strength. Forging is done because it is way easier/cheaper than melting and casting it.
Quenching and tempering gives it it's desired strength.
My understanding was that forging is work hardening (but hard and strong are not the same thing), annealing cancels it out,
which is why quenching and tempering are important.
Also the story of the structure of the metal is a bit different when you've folded it 100's of times. No blacksmith or foundry is getting that sort of fine work in their material.
Forging squeezes the slag out, thereby purifying the steel. As far as I am aware this was the primary mechanism by which folding steel (which was done about a dozen times, not hundreds; those larger numbers come from 2^[n folds]) strengthened Japanese blades.
Was. These days the labor involved in hand-forging a part dominates and cast alloys are everything anyone uses for anything, outside of oddball boutique communities like fancy knife aficionados.
I have never interacted with "knife nerds" before, but I sense their presence here. I want to get a good knife to take camping, anyone have a recommendation?
Camping knife? Unless you don't have a multitool a leatherman will be far more useful and is a usable knife in its own.
Most EDC(Every Day Carry) knives are sufficient for most of what would come up camping. If you're going to carry anything bigger a hatchet is a lot more handy.
That said if you're looking for something decent Benchmade, Spyderco and Buck all make solid knives. I'm partial to Benchmade mostly because their locking mechanism works with a single hand in a way that doesn't put your fingers in the path of the blade and can be used with gloves.
535, 970 and Griptilian are all fantastic knives that will take a beating and are easy to carry. I have a 535 that I use on the farm and is more than strong enough for anything I throw at it.
A knife that you have on you more often and easy to carry is better than a heavier or larger one. Some blade lengths are also illegal in certain cities so staying under 3" is a good idea. I usually carry a light pocket knife, flashlight and small-ish multitool which covers most of the bases.
This. I’ve had a Benchmade 943 in my pocket every day for more than a decade, but still pack a multitool when camping. Had other knives prior, but kinda lost interest in anything new after getting the 943. Except when wearing a suit... still wouldn’t mind finding a blade a bit more suit-able.
I'm also a big Benchmade fan. Great company. I used the Bugout forever until a couple months ago when I started using the Grizzly Ridge. Either way you can't go wrong.
An Opinel #7 would be fine. Carbon steel, or stainless. A Victorinox Tinker would also be fine. Some people like serrated blades. A Leatherman would be great. Basically anything Spyderco/Benchmade is way more than sufficient.
I would get a completely separate knife for food (one to open the marshmallow bag, another to make the stick pointy).
I was expecting more exotic names frankly. That's my ignorance speaking perhaps, but to me top metallurgist would be Damascus steel and maybe Japanese swords?
Wow, the author went pretty deep on this. I was expecting something like, “Bohler wins because M390 is best hurr dee hurr.” That’s the typical fare on knife forums at least (but substitute whichever super steel is your current favorite). But this piece really earns the “knife steel nerd” name and has a pretty solid history and covers a lot of technological developments over the years.
I'm not an EDC knife kind of guy, but I have spent a lot of time and money on kitchen knives. SG-2 (aka R2) is pretty much the best that I have tried in terms of edge retention, ease of sharpening, and convenience (i.e. rust-resistant).
Superior in what way? I can imagine there are environments where the stainless properties of some of the steels in the article offset the properties of any mega sharp rusty iron knife.
Japanese swords are amazing objects, but can chip when hit by another sword and are effectively ruined. European swords were renowned for their comparative toughness, however.
Corollary: there's a lot higher parrying frequency in modern FIE-style fencing compared to modern kendo, which partially carries over because of the historically more brittle steel used in Japan.
His data cant be that bad though because I built a model to predict the number of cuts for a blade using edge angle and metal compounds (no real way to take into account heat treat though). It was relatively accurate for the less exotic steels. I should really share that with the world.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b_rNfdJnL9oyn-JoL9yU...
He also records videos of himself and posts them to his youtube channel along with other knife reviews.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdICfnpxD9uzHLaSr3DN55g