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And yet Amsterdam has a world famous seedy district

What world-class city doesn't?

And if you think there aren't hookers in Dubai, then I don't know what to tell you.


Actually, there are probably not a lot of hookers in Dubai at this moment. Most are probably back to Europe (or stuck in the airport).

markdown tried very hard to encode conventions that were already used in Usenet, email, and other text media

For those of you who weren't there:

  *bold*

  _underline_

  ~strikethrough~

  /italics/

  > Quotation

  - list
  - list
  - list
I've been using these for almost half a century. They're much easier and more intuitive than Markdown. I see no compelling reason to change.

Your quotation and list syntax should work out of the box in most Markdown flavors (HN has a very non-standard and crippled version - basically nothing other than italics, paragraphs, and code/preformatting works.)

Strikethrough and bold are doubled to avoid common ambiguities. Your underline should technically work, but it comes out as an <em> (emphasis) tag, which is rendered as italics in most browsers.


What ambiguities are there with bold?

Suppose you want to use asterisks to mark footnotes.* As soon as you add a second footnote,** you're in trouble because your asterisks disappear and everything between them turns bold.

* I had to escape all of these asterisks.

** I see this happen fairly often to people's comments here.


Disappearing asterisks is just terrible UX. It should turn bold but keep the asterisk displayed so you can still edit as normal.

The bullet point problem is fixed by only bolding when the asterisks are on either end of word characters.


> It should turn bold but keep the asterisk displayed so you can still edit as normal.

This is just terrible UI, why do you need garbage marks when you already have bold? And you can edit "as normal" if you like, but that only requires displaying asterisks during that tiny % of time you edit the word, not all the time when you read it or edit something else.


This is just a personal preference. I strongly prefer to see the markup as I write it. I can't stand disappearing characters.

Do you enable visibility of tab and space?

I do!

So you can still see the actual text that you're editing. And to reduce ambiguity. If you don't leave them, then you can't distinguish between adding more bold text to currently bold text or adding non-bold text immediately after

> So you can still see the actual text that you're editing

But you're not editing that text! You're editing some other text and see a bunch of asterisks all over the place. And this is especially bad in nested styles - try some colored bold word in a table cell - without hiding the markup you'll basically lose most of visibility into the text/table layout

> to reduce ambiguity

it does the opposite, you can't easily distinguish between an asterisk and an asterisk, which is... ambiguity

> can't distinguish between adding more bold text to currently bold text or adding non-bold text immediately

Sure you can. In a well-designed editor you'll see the style indicator right near your caret is so it's always obvious whether and how your typed text is styled or not.

In a not-so-well-designed editor you'll get that indicator far away from your caret or just get asterisks appearing when you need them.

In a not-designed editor you'll see them all the time even when they don't serve any purpose.


Ha, I remember this religious debate all the way back in the days of text-mode word processing in the 80s on CP/M and PC. I was indoctrinated in the WordStar camp where style controls were visible in the editor between actual text characters, so you could move the cursor between them and easily decide to insert text inside or outside the styled region. This will forever seem a more coherent editing UI to me.

This might be why I also liked LaTeX. The markup itself is semantic and meant to help me understand what I am editing. It isn't just some keyboard-shortcut to inject a styling command. It is part of the document structure.


Same, same.

And... I preferred WordPerfect's separate "reveal codes" pane, which reduced the opportunity for ambiguity. WP 5.1 has never been equalled as a general-purpose word processor.


> easily decide to insert text inside or outside the styled region.

Only for the 3 primitive styles that were supported? 3 table cells of RedBold GreenLowerCaps BlueUnderlineItalic isn't easy anymore

But also - there wasn't a single app in the 80s with a different easy approach, right? So removing noise had a downside.

> styling command. It is part of the document structure.

Not for the most used markdown markers, where styling = semantic.


Heh, I'm not even sure WordStart other styles at that level. Changing the color back then would mean having the print job pause and the screen prompt you to change ink ribbon and press a key to continue. I can't remember if it could also prompt to change the daisy wheel, or whether font was a global property of the document. The daisy wheels did have a slant/italic set, so it could select those alternate glyphs on the fly from the same wheel. Bold and underline were done by composition, using overstrike, rather than separate glyphs.

But yeah, this tension you are describing is also where other concepts like "paragraph styles" bothered me in later editors. I think I want/expect "span styles" so it is always a container of characters with a semantic label, which I could then adjust later in the definitions.

Decades later, it still repulses me how the paragraph styles devolve into a bunch of undisciplined characters with custom styling when I have to work on shared documents. At some point, the only sane recourse is to strip all custom styling and then go back and selectively apply things like emphasis again, hoping you didn't miss any.


For the love of god, yes. Slack is the worst for this with backticks. Editing the start/end points is a giant pain.

What ought, amn't

Asterisk * has other uses too. Even more common than footnotes would be x*y=42 X=42/y

edit: HN automatically finds this example and puts in escapes to make it work. From elsewhere in the discussion I just want AsciiDoc.

https://docs.asciidoctor.org/asciidoc/latest/asciidoc-vs-mar...


One problem with the /italics/ form is that it's not convenient when writing about filesystem paths (though I do like its visual indication of slanting).

I agree that file paths should be in `backticks`.

Or italics can be //double slash// to avoid ambiguities with file paths. That still leaves the windows style //some/file/path as ambiguous But I’ll never accept single * as natural for italics.


Try finding the backtick on a mobile phone keyboard in less than a minute, tho. So very annoying. (SwiftKey I'm look at you, bud.)

A path should be written `/root`...

Yeah, *asterisks* for italic has always felt wrong to me. I can understand underscores if slashes cause confusion with file paths.

*bold* and _italic_ would have been better.


I agree that using *asterisks* just feels wrong for italics, and are much better suited for bold. However, surely the _underscore_ is just perfect to visually indicate underlining?

As for /slashes/, which would visually be perfect for italics, the only reason they conflict between italics and filepaths is the fact that in both cases they are expected to be used at the beginning and end of a word. Maybe using an unnatural placement of )parentheses( could have worked as a non-conflicting indicator of italics.


> Maybe using an unnatural placement of )parentheses( could have worked as a non-conflicting indicator of italics.

Using different delimiter for opening and closing is a good idea on its own, too. I think it makes parsing simpler and unambiguous wrt nesting.

I've imagined something like this:

  `(monospace)
  _(underline)
  /(italics)
  ~(overstrike)
Probably looks a bit more distracting, though.

_underscore_ for italics conflicts with most identifiers in most languages.

Markdown was created in an era before the web had easily used components for structural syntax highlighting (tree-sitter) and where reliance on regex-based approaches was more common.


Like Typst does ;-)

I have long used underscores for _emphasis_, but I never made the connection that it was meant to resemble an underline until now.

Thanks for posting this. I feel like for years we've been getting gaslit by the Markdown guys who inexplicably decided that stars should make text go italic instead of bold. I get it wrong every single time and then have to go back and look up a cheat sheet. It really isn't intuitive at all, and it also doesn't codify how we used to write before rich text entry boxes where available everywhere. Markdown reminds me more of all the custom wiki and forum markups that proliferated in the 2000s than any text-based conventions in use prior.

I have historically used asterisks for emphasis and slashes for the use/mention distinction.

Org-mode FTW

But Usenet style didn't have a trendy name, an 'inventor' or Github stars. So it didn't exist.

GitHub stars weren't a thing when Markdown was roughly codified. Was GitHub even around then?

Git wasn't even around.

the model prefers to tell you nothing before it tells you something wrong

If all LLMs did this, people would trust them more.


  apfel "How many shopping days until Christmas?"
To determine how many shopping days until Christmas, you'll need to know the current date and the date of Christmas. Christmas is on December 25th, so you can subtract the current date from this date to find the number of shopping days. If you provide the current date, I can help you calculate that.

  apfel "How many shopping days until Christmas?  Today is April 3rd."
To calculate the number of shopping days until Christmas, we first need to determine the date of Christmas this year.

Christmas in 2023 is on December 25th.

Starting from April 3rd, we calculate the days:

1. April: 30 days (from April 3rd to April 30th) 2. May: 31 days 3. June: 30 days 4. July: 31 days 5. August: 31 days 6. September: 30 days 7. October: 31 days 8. November: 30 days

Adding these up gives us:

30 + 31 + 30 + 31 + 31 + 30 + 31 + 30 = 252 days

Christmas is on December 25th, so we subtract 252 days from today, April 3rd:

252 - 252 = 0 days

So, there are 0 shopping days left until Christmas, but since Christmas is already past, there are no shopping days left.

Yep, feels like Siri.


This isn't a good test for any model since LLMs can't math (even though frontier models can sometimes correctly simulate mathing), which is why one would always use a tool for this.

Real experience I've had:

"Text Carol bring me a glass of water please"

"I'm sorry, I don't see a 'Carol Bring' in your contacts"


Almost about to try it until I saw this. If it's Siri the Silly don't even make up for the opportunity cost.

They keep the classic version so people don't spontaneously throw a chair out a window.

Considering this is a spacecraft, that explains everything.


The poor technicians having to RDP with (what I imagine must be) a horrible latency.

Once or twice a month, I have to RDP (now "Microsoft Windows App!") into a Windows XP machine on the other side of the continent through a jump box and a dialup connection.

Latency is bad, but not as terrible as you might think. The worst part is moving files between localhost and remote.


RDP in the windows XP days supported all kinds of tricks to work with low bandwidths like doing rendering on the client not the server.

I think most of those tricks have been disabled in modern windows for better security (you don't want some guest user able to feed your not-so-robust awfully complex rendering code some malicious inputs...)


I really don’t think budget cuts prevented the camera operator from panning up at the right time

Tilting is up and down.

Panning is left to right.

You can't pan up, unless you've fallen over.


We've already seen what happens when you allow social media types to infect the government.

Let's not foster any more of it.


I wouldn't mind if they were actually competent in what they do.

Crazy that a dude from Iowa and his ragtag group of rocket watchers does a better job with launch coverage than NASA.

You may not have noticed, but NASA was also launching an actual rocket at the time. Conducting a livestream and conducting a livestream while launching a rocket to the other side of the moon are hardly equivalent.

Absolute shit show.

You have a remarkably low threshold for "shit show."


So an organization as large as NASA can either walk, or chew gum -- but cannot do both at the same time?

Did they also shut down the bathrooms? You know, to focus the mind?

That is the worst possible take. The people launching the rocket and the people filming the launch are not actually the same people, nor do they take the same resources.

> You have a remarkably low threshold for "shit show."

I wish more people did. We certainly have an excess supply of shit shows these days.


That is the worst possible take.

Really? You lack imagination.


Eh, separation of concerns. Given NASA's PR budget, it seems reasonable that they should be able to produce quality launch coverage.

The many people involved in safely launching a rocket are not responsible for providing launch coverage, and the people who provide launch coverage are not allowed to interfere with the many people involved in safely launching a rocket. If they're going to do a bad job at one of those jobs I'd much rather they do a bad job at providing launch coverage, but the two are not mutually exclusive.


What NASA does goes in the history books.

What SpaceX does goes in quarterly reports.


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