The public side is extremely important for agents though. Agents need up to date public information to do their job. Every other service is going closed. Public information and activity should be a commons.
Yeah I’ve met the Radicle people a couple times. I’ve never given it a thorough review but, for their goals, their designs have always seemed strong, and they’re pleasant people to chat with.
The main difference was atproto wanted to tackle scale, so we went with a servers & aggregation model. Radicle is going for device-to-device networking as a primary goal.
Exactly. I'm personally slowly working on my own parallel "appview" of tangled that is accessible exclusively via SMTP, IMAP, JMAP, and eventually integration with a Lore + Patchwork frontend.
Oh I haven't uploaded anything yet but I'm around in the Tangled discord (and you can find me on bluesky/tangled with the handle onedeuxtriseigo.nullpo.dev).
I'll make a proper announcement when it's anywhere close to presentable or even functional and I imagine the tangled folks will amplify that when I do.
Yeah the problems they seemed to have were over collaborative data structures with permissions. You’re right about how atproto solves that, which means you’re using CRDTs if you need to collaborate. If that’s a fit mismatch, I’d tell people to just appoint api servers which wrap a repo and provide the needed semantics.
The simple answer is that atproto works like the web & search engines, where the apps aggregate from the distributed accounts. So the proper analogy here would be like yahoo going down in 1999.
Does Google Reader help you make sense of it? It’s more like each app is like its own Google Reader. And indeed you were able to access the same posts via other apps at that time of outage.
Not the original poster but I do have some ideas. Official Bluesky clients could randomly/round-robin access 3-4 different appview servers run by different organizations instead of one centralized server. Likewise there could be 3-4 relays instead of one. Upgrades could roll across the servers so they don't all get hit by bugs immediately.
This is why I'm hoping fiatjaf has a recommendation here. I have a feeling he might have a proposal that solves this. But doesn't solve all of it, just some of it.
Google and MSN Search were already available at this time. Also websites used to publish webrings and there was IRC and forums to ask people about things.
The comparison here is to something like TCP/IP. TCP/IP never goes down. TCP/IP is a protocol, the servers may go down and cause disruption, but the protocol doesn't really have the ability to "go down".
Nostr is also a protocol. The communication on top of Nostr is pretty resilient compared to other solutions though, so that's the main highlight here.
If tens of servers go down, then some people may start noticing a bit of inconvenience. If hundreds of servers go down, then some people may need to coordinate out of bound on what relays to use, but it still generally speaking works ok.
That's because TCP/IP is a protocol, not a (centralized or decentralized) server. A protocol cannot go down. It can trigger failures, it can be abused, but it cannot go down.
It's like saying "English never burns". Sure, you can't burn English but you can burn specific books, newspapers and so on.
Right but that's kind of meaningless, saying the nostr protocol never goes down, because the AT Protocol didn't go down in this bluesky case either. Protocols don't "go down". Stuff making use of protocols does.
Wasn't aware there are ~2k relays now. Have inter-relay sharing situation improved?
When I tried it long time ago, the idea was just a transposed Mastodon model that the client would just multi-post to dozen different servers(relays) automatically to be hopeful that the post would be available in at least one shared relays between the user and their followers. That didn't seem to scale well.
Getting clients to do the right thing is like herding cats, but there has been some progress. Early 2023 Mike Dilger came up with the "gossip model" (renamed "outbox model" for obvious reasons). Here's my write-up: https://habla.news/hodlbod/8YjqXm4SKY-TauwjOfLXS
The basic idea is that for microblogging use cases users advertise which relays their content is stored on, which clients follow (this implies that there are less-decentralized indexes that hold these pointers, but it does help distribute content to aligned relays instead of blast content everywhere).
Also, relays aside, one key difference vs ActivityPub is that no third party owns your identity, which means you can move from one relay to another freely, which is not true on Mastodon.
Thanks! Not to be critical - more like thinking out loud - and don't have solutions to following myself - but that sounds like it could 1) affect negatively to power concentrating into the top popular relays -> potentially leading to same kind of speech issues as semi-centralized ActivityPub, and 2) it won't solve need to maintain multiple firehose connections.
I've been wondering if the multi-firehose architecture is really where decentralized censorship resistant microblogging should be the way forward; I remember the Windows Mobile clients for 2ch.net(today 5ch.io) that would scrape thread deltas from bunch of subdomains under it was plenty fast on 128k(advertised) connection to get thousands of posts in late 2000s, and so I think an RSS style of systems getting delta updates from multiple domains could work without having to do the insanity of early Nostr, or massive liabilities for instance operators with Mastodon, especially if those multiple domains could be set up with relative ease.
Yeah, I don't exactly understand why you have to sign up every time to Mastodon servers and server operators to have to be responsible about users. It worked when it was urgently needed, which was brilliant, but the ID system had under baked spots.
Yeah, any time you need either an index or a caching layer you have to re-centralize one way or another. But decoupling those "services" from the data storage itself helps, and credible exit makes the gatekeepers far less powerful. An example: a few weeks ago nostr.band, one of nostr's main indexers/search services went away. Search is still somewhat impacted (evidence that we were centralized around it), but indexing (i.e. finding users' relay lists) is still covered by several other services.
Just want to add that the AT Protocol IETF working group has been formed, and the PLC directory independent organization and board has officially been established. I’m at the closing talk for this years Atmosphere Conference as I write this and it’s really an incredible community of devs.
I'm excited to see communities of developers working to build things that are meaningful and matter to regular people, which ATProto seems to have more of than some other ecosystems in decent tech land. And where else could you attend an awesome workshop on "Hospicing Social Media?"
the law in the UK doesn't require any of that. It didn't even required Apple to do it. Ofcom is praising Apple for doing it even though it was not required. Social Networks need to do it.
This UK law does not apply to OSes. It applies to online platforms. The author ran into this problem because using the iPhone required an Apple account, which could be used for something that the law applies to, but Apple didn't want to implement lazy verification and instead required verification up front.
That depends on if you live in a jurisdiction that lives or dies by free speech, and if it considers code speech[0]. Forcing you to implement age verification is effectively forcing you to speak things you don't want to say, which isn't free speech.
The public side is extremely important for agents though. Agents need up to date public information to do their job. Every other service is going closed. Public information and activity should be a commons.
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